@celesteh definitely. There's also the thing of like, if we want to abolish gender roles then what else do we leave in gender?

@restioson
People like having genders, so gender roles will always exist. Our goal shouldn't be abolishment, but making them less restrictive and less binary

I also think it's an (completely understandable) error to view gender entirely in terms of power relationships. People don't transition in order to shift their positions within a power hierarchy. Some gender dysphoria is related more to social signalling than embodiment

@restioson

So given that trans people exist, which demonstrates the existence and importance of gender outside of positions of relative power, how do we talk up masculinity without denigrating femininity?

I think the first step is to stop seeing them as polar opposites, like points along a one dimensional spectrum, but maybe more as perpendicular, as a two dimensional graph. They're certainly related, but they're different.

@restioson if masculinity is not three absence of femininity and it's not a power relationship, what is it?

The expression of masculinity is very much culturally encoded and contested. Sometimes it's seen as essentially authentic, unadorned and related to labor. Sometimes, it's seen as the exact opposite, as in portraits of French kings in tights and frills.

@restioson
Masculinity also cannot be encoded within the body, or it would not be accessible to trans and gender non conforming people. On the other hand, there is some relationship to embodiment. Gender is a human universal (not the specific expressions of it, but there's no societies that don't have gender) and it's heavily influenced by cis people and cis bodies. So masculinity is not cock and balls, but is related to them

@restioson

With penetrative sex, a person with a penis enters triumphant, but exits deflated. A certain amount of identity seems to surround one's cock, but one has almost no control over it.

Cis hetero masculinity is a struggle towards inevitable defeat.

@restioson

I think that within my culture, a defining factor in masculinity is struggle. Against oneself. Against society. Against each other in terms of social ranking. The last one is toxic, but the others need not be.

Defeat is inevitable, as one is never entirely in control of one's self or anything else. Where masculinity is good or toxic, I think may lie in how it copes with defeat or victory.

@restioson

One can have grace and humility, or one can have terrified bravado. A lot of toxic masculinity seems to stem from fear of being unworthy or attempts to establish one's worth based on unearned systemic power relationships. As masculinity itself can socially function as such a relationship, it makes the whole topic somewhat fraught.

@restioson

I don't know. I'm not cis. Maybe activity masculinity had been a struggle /for me/ and I'm trying to universalise it?

I did an art installation about militarism and masculinity which used a joystick as a penis. Men seemed to understand the work was about over compensation. Women tended to think it was about the power of a cock. It was strange to get such divergent readings....

@celesteh wow, that is a lot of stuff to unpack. Personally I don't understand all of it right now but I will be going to talk through it with my friends. Thanks so much!

@restioson

I wrote a blog post. https://www.celesteh.com/blog/2019/09/03/masculinity/

It quotes your question. I hope that's ok.

@celesteh that is okay! I am excited to read!!

@celesteh was a very good read, and I think I understand better now. Thanks!

Regarding the stance that gender is always present and we therefore can't abolish it, isn't that an appeal to nature?

Secondly, was the gender nihilist manifesto not written by a trans woman (I thought so but can't find out exactly)? It specifically mentions that it was almost *made for the liberation of gender oppressed people*. Do you think that it fails in that?

@restioson

1. I am not making any appeals to nature, but just saying there are no examples anywhere of gender being abolished and that doing so would take away something that most people seem to like. I may be universalising here, but I know I'd be upset if somebody tried to take away my gender.

@restioson

2. I don't know anything about that manifesto and I don't mean to misrepresent anybody's good intentions. British TERFs really really are on board with the idea of abolishing gender. Alas, they want to start with trans people. They say there's a love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin line between abolishing (trans) genders and trans people, but it's hard to say. They've really adopted this slogan and made it their own.

(2/n)

@restioson

I want to be sure I'm not speaking out of my bum, so I've searched DuckDuckGo from the UK, but with no location filters for the terms abolish gender and am looking at the first page of results. I expected to see a lot of TERFism but the only instances of it seem to be on the tumblr, tag.

I'm extremely glad to see this idea has some positive stuff around it. I kins of still don't want my gender abolished, but maybe I'm being selfish

@restioson

This essay came up and I like it. https://medium.com/gender-2-0/gender-abolition-as-colonisation-f32b55505e38

@restioson

also this one: https://www.ravishly.com/2015/04/30/should-we-really-do-away-gender

and this one, which strongly mirrors my views: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/14/tfl-scrapping-ladies-and-gentlemen-gender-public-toilets

@celesteh huh I will read that

@celesteh @restioson re: power relationships, I think it's important to distinguish "why people identify with men/women/etc." from "what is gender's function in society"

I think it's totally possible for gender to be fundamentally about power AND for people to transition for unrelated reasons

@substack definitely. I have gender abolitionist sympathies. But, who are we supposed to be now that we have been raised with this socialisation and gender? That's kinda what I'm trying to get at

@restioson be whoever you want, recognizing that we are moulded by the collective trauma of Living in a Society. but i don't think trying to reform gender is a worthwhile project personally. gender was something that was done to us, but i think reforming it will only prop it up when we should be throwing it in the trash

@substack dude omg that's so deeep, like we live in a society I just realised that. Duuuude maybe gamers should rise up

/s

But yeah. Good advice,thanks

@starwall relate. I think I made a toot on here once which said that my masculinity was wearing boring shirts

@restioson being masculine means that I think that having mustaches and sunglasses seems like a cool idea

@restioson It's no longer 6am and I'm out and about, so I can think more about this. Personally speaking...

Knowing when to be strong but also understanding when being so isn't needed or welcome.

Understanding and accepting my vulnerabilities.

Being able to ask for help.

Accepting and loving the feminine in me as much as the masculine.

Being a daddy, a brother a lover and a little boy (thanks, Mr Big).

Beards.

@oreolek well what is a gentleman then? What should a good father be?

@restioson gentleman is a man who supports women around and a good father supports his family. It does tie into wealth because you can't support even yourself and be an individual when you're poor, you have to join some group and then it's what the group says.

@mxsparks thanks, will watch when I have time later ☺

@ghost_bird but then what does "be a man" mean even? That's the question I'm asking. It's not possible to frame the negatives completely without the positives.

@restioson @ghost_bird
I guess "man" and "woman" are just cultural signifiers, and their meaning is sedimented in every culture (the concepts of masculinity and femininity are slightly different around the world).
Being a trans man, this is a question I ask myself everyday. The problem is that there are few to none positive models, and being a man "ethically" is tough bc it's something one must create on one's own, everyday.
Just my two cents :)

@Blackbuck @restioson Agreed. And in order to create an "ethical" masculinity you have to start dismantling the systems (of language, of privilege, of oppression) behind those signifiers, which is naturally going to be hard work.

@ghost_bird @restioson
Precisely. It's extremely solitary work if I may add, especially if you're not born a man: you know how bad toxic masculinity can be, because you were oppressed by it, and you "fall for it" pretty easily, if you're not acquainted with feminism.
Then, you have to create positive masc models in your head which are performative enough but not hierarchical: there's no such thing in the world, you have to invent it and it's not easy.

@Blackbuck @restioson Yes, I suspect it's easier for me as a trans woman because when I fail at femininity I have male privilege to fall back on.

@Blackbuck @restioson Interrogating my feelings about this, I guess I'm suspicious of positive descriptions of masculinity because of how often they're used to set up an opposition with femininity? Men are strong and women are weak; men are brave and women are anxious; men are direct and women are manipulative. It doesn't have to be that way, of course, but it explains my unease.

@ghost_bird @restioson
Baaad wording on my part; I meant to confront my experience with that of a cis man. I apologize.
Your unease is the same I feel about "ethical" masculinities: sadly I have to believe that they *can* exist, otherwise I'd be struggling just to join the assholes :D
Nice talk, btw

@Blackbuck Yes, nice talk. And no reason to apologise - like a lot of feminists and trans women I've not given enough thought to trans men's experience and I'm working to catch up.