It's really telling that some of the people most undermining gender as a system of oppression are so shat on by TERFs as well as feminists. The strategy to separate us works.

Feminism _must_ keep a path open for men to exit both toxicity ... and being men. And it must allow people to become men without forcing them to adopt toxicity to fit in.

@aredridel I have to admit I struggle with understanding your main points. Are you trying to say that gender must be interpreted differently, so we don't get caught in old gender roles (even if we stop using the gender binary)?

Anyhow, I relate really much to what you said here: "non-binary so often means 'not like other girls' or 'not like other men' or 'my womanhood is so often questioned it hurts less to let it go'." Maybe it sounds weird, but... I'm so much in feminist spaces where men >>

@aredridel << get shittalked all the time for reasons I absolutely cannot recognize myself in, my concept of manhood changed and I started dissociating from that concept. That is, I became non-binary.

That being said, I still feel kind of sad about the loss of 'my gender', in that sense. I don't feel this was how it should have gone. Manhood should be a more fluid concept than many feminists make it seem.

@jellal YES exactly this.

Some of this comes from growing up in a culture that had some seriously wonderful men. There _are_ non-toxic versions out there. Being able to _see_ and act on the oppression out there is of course one of the things that helps. But in so much of our current discourse, it's so much easier to have room to grow if one disavows manhood than if one disavows toxicity.

Something was lost there.

@aredridel How do you mean that second-last sentence exactly? It's possible to do both, right? I've disavowed manhood, but still can disavow toxicity.

@jellal I mean it as that it's easier to disavow manhood to escape toxicity than it is to disavow toxicity and keep manhood. We've made the boundary sharp and harsh. And I think that's to some degree feminism ending up complicit with an agile patriarchy.

@aredridel Oh wait you mean, it's easier for NON-MEN to disavow manhood to escape toxicity than it is to disavow toxicit and keep manhood! Oh dang I thought you meant it was easier for MEN. ;p Explains the confusion.

@jellal Eh. I actually mean men, but like, I don't see those as innate. If where divisions between genders is socially constructed, I think it's easier for a person to disavow manhood to escape than to keep it and disavow toxicity. Like, to a certain point, we create 'non-binary' as a gender-lite version of genders assigned socially.

@jellal Like, I think we police manhood—and participate as feminists in this partriarchical thing—to the point where it is harder to detoxify. We often participate in constraining manood to toxicity.

@aredridel I only partially agree. I think the people that are most likely to disavow manhood because feminists have constrained manhood to toxicity, are exactly the people who aren't very toxic already. Of course everyone is toxic in certain ways, but I don't think these people are really worth worrying about. From all AMAB, they're probably way less toxic than average.

@jellal Yeah, for sure. Though I don't think that's disagreement.

I just find it weird that disavowing manhood is part of this process. Like really deeply weird. I think it helps sustain the toxicity in manhood.


@jellal (that said, like, this is a social level argument; that's not to say any one person's disavowal is wrong. But I think that the structure we've created is bizarre, twisted by patriarchy. And somewhat by our participation in it.)

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