@kogomi @BunnyHearted Yes, that's the Golden Rule: the one with the gold makes the rules.

@tpfto @kogomi @BunnyHearted the question is actually really interesting. And I would like to hear a philosopher's reasoning around this.

I mean, the instinct of most people is "well of course, stealing is bad", and I think most people agree with that. I think the real question that should be asked is about property and power. Stealing should probably be illegal, but on the other hand society should not be such that a person feels they need to steal.

In other words, the real issue is that that there are poor people, not that stealing is illegal.

We then have the question as to what how to get from one state of affairs to the other. We have people who has more than they will ever need, and how too you reallocate those resources without stealing? Well, society in general and government specifically decides what is stealing, which brings us right back to what someone else replied, suggesting that it's the people with money who decides the laws.

And wouldn't you know it. Countries where money plays less of a role in politics tend to be the places where people have less need to steal to support themselves.

I have had various different political leanings over the years, and right now I'm not sure where I stand, but I know one thing, if a society accepts that some people have so little they feel they need to steal, that system is broken and its proponents should not be allowed to have power.

@loke @kogomi @BunnyHearted I'm in the "behind every great fortune is an equally great crime" camp, so you won't hear any objections on your take from me. As much as those people fantasize about having made it because of their earnest selves...

@loke @tpfto @kogomi No one "earns" a billion dollars though, they steal it from others through suppressed wages, monopolies, and the threat of starvation.

Is stealing back what was stolen from you even theft?

@loke @tpfto @kogomi I remember seeing stats that showed how billionaires became something like 1.9 trillion dollars richer in the pandemic (as of a couple of months ago), and working people lost ~1.7 trillion.

I wonder where that 1.7 trillion went, and if these numbers are somehow connected 🤔. Hmm hmmmm.

@BunnyHearted @tpfto @kogomi true, and I think this is a matter of terminology. Is all forms of illicit transfer of resources theft?

@loke @BunnyHearted @kogomi sure, you could see it as a matter of terminology. The methods of recourse available to common folk are rendered "illegal" by whoever's writing the laws, but the methods that are only available to, and can only be used by the upper crust are just "business" and "economy".

@loke @tpfto @kogomi tbh I'm less interested in terminology or morals of "theft", and more interested in getting people the food and resources they need to survive.

Asking whether it "counts" as theft in some case or another can be valuable when engaging with folks who think "stealing is always wrong" (a concept that only makes sense in the context of certain constructs, like private property), but I don't wanna get too hung up here. I want all ppl to eat

@BunnyHearted @tpfto @kogomi Exactly. That was my point too, which is why I deleted my original reply on this topic that went into a long detour on the philosophy of what theft is.

Instead I wanted to highlight that I, as you said, the important thing is that people are given the basic needs for sustenance, so that they they don't need to worry about where to sleep, or where their next meal will come from.

In my opinion, there are a set of things that should be provided to everybody, no questions asked:

Transportation (free public transport)
Communication (some kind of mobile device perhaps)

I mention these things specifically because they are things that are needed to not only survive, but also what is needed to bring yourself out of whatever hole you find yourself in. You need education to, well, educate yourself so as to be able to find a job more easily. You need transportation to be able to go to a job interview. You need communication in order to participate in a society that is becoming more and more online.

Many countries do provide these things to some extent, ant it's absolutely stunning to me that there are people who disagree with this very basic premise.

Oh, and one more thing: Unless you have excess money left after paying for the bare minimum, you should not be taxed. In other words, the cutoff for where you have o pay income tax should be at the level where you can sustain yourself.

This last part of where Sweden fails. They take income tax from you even if you barely have enough to survive.

@BunnyHearted @loke @kogomi I've always said that it's hard to debate morals on an empty stomach.

@tpfto @BunnyHearted @loke I'd say moral discussion become more interesting when it's about empty stomachs

@kogomi @tpfto @loke not to get too obviously a postie here, but what good are "good" morals that lead to marginalized people starving?

"Morals" wielded this way are just another form of social control, and another layer of policing and protection for those on top.

@BunnyHearted @kogomi @tpfto Letting people starve is immoral. Thus, good morals cannot lead to that.

@baronnarcveldt Like come on I don't even want that much of it. Will they even notice?

@BunnyHearted and they make their money stealing the plusvue from the worker

@BunnyHearted As the German government's drug commissioner once said so beautifully about cannabis:
"It is illegal because it is forbidden...".

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